*Just a couple thoughts… only scratching the surface so look forward to your thoughts. I’m sure posts will evolve over time, but you have to start somewhere.
I am glad we are reading this book together. One of the reasons it intrigued me was the author. I have not read a N.T. Wright book from beginning to end and thought I need to make that happen (which is the reason I suggested the accountability). Another reason is the importance of continuing the ongoing dialogue surrounding the person of Jesus. As Wright says in regards to being a minister, “I couldn’t do it with integrity unless I had faced the hard questions for myself.” (4)
- “Ignorance is bliss.” This phrase comes from an 18th century poem. It popped into my head when reading the first chapter. I think people in general would rather live in ignorance (and I use this word in the best light possible; I have fallen into this trap at times). When it comes to understanding who Jesus is and what the kingdom He came to set-up is really all about, I believe our fall and/or resort into ‘ignorance’ is two-fold. (#1) It is easier for us to live within assumption and find comfort in a kingdom that may not even resemble the Kingdom of God. As Wright says, “We want a ‘religious’ leader, not a king! We want someone to save our souls, not rule our world!” (5) Once we find a Christianity that is easy to live, it is easy to stay there and see no need in continuing to explore the depth and reality of the kingdom. (#2) We think we have it all figured out and therefore there is no reason to listen to ‘outside’ voices; differing views that may stretch our understandings. I believe this is dangerous territory. “After all, just as it’s quite possible for skeptics to be mistaken, so it’s quite possible, as church history shows in plenty, for devout Jesus-followers to be mistaken as well.” (17)
In Jesus, the glory of God was/is revealed and the people that were waiting for him, expecting and anticipating his arrival, missed it. (John 1:11, 14) The Psalms and prophets painted a picture of God’s return and ultimate rule as king. Yet, God’s kingdom was not what they expected. Therefore, they missed the very embodiment of the kingdom when it was right in front of them. The difficulty in seeing and understanding Jesus continues today. I had a teen tell me two weeks ago, “If I lived when Jesus was walking on earth, I know I’d follow Him because then I would know God is real.” I chuckled and politely responded with, “Probably not.” Wright says, “Neither Simon nor the crowds nor the other displies nor Jerusalem itself have any idea what power is. They don’t understand what glory is. They simply haven’t a clue.” (38) I asked myself, ‘Do I?’ Probably not.
- How do we combat ignorance? It begins with a desire to truly know Jesus. Will we ever ‘pin-it-down’, figure him out completely? No. Do we give up on trying to understand ‘who he was, what he did, and why he matters’? Certainly not. God told Moses, "I am who I am." (Ex. 3:14) He is completely other than us. There is mystery that we will never know; and that is ok. Yet, the other part of the mysteriousness of Jesus lies in what we do know. (9) How do we keep from living for a kingdom that is contrary to the Kingdom of God? It begins with humility. Humility creates a willingness to listen to others. I think we lose that ability when we begin to think too highly of ourselves and/or we quit considering the mysteriousness of Jesus.
- It’s dangerous, slippery ground to apply Jesus words to our context without first considering his context. Wright says this discipline is “almost as corrosive to genuine Christian faith as skepticism itself.” (21) We must understand Jesus lived and spoke within specific culture and time. Does his words and life mean something for us today? Absolutely! The process of considering what that might be begins with understanding Jesus’ world. Furthermore, Jesus life is more than about teaching us about religion. “This is about everything: life, art, the universe, justice, death, money. It’s about politics, philosophy, culture, and being human.” (11) Later on when talking about Jesus’ coming, he says, “It involved everything, from power and politics to culture and family.” (54) Jesus was not just a ‘religious’ figure that has an impact on our faith. Rather, Jesus’ life and words have much to tell us about life; all of it.
A few other questions...
- Do you know any sources to help reveal first-century mindset, worldview, culture? (I think Jesus Wants to Save Christians is a good resource for first-century Jewish worldview)
- How do we engage with the modern day perfect storm? Particularly, the conservative and skepticism mindsets (as defined by Wright) in others (without creating a stormJ)?
Mark
*I am looking forward to Part 2 to seeing how he unpacks the ramifications in Jesus’ words and actions in light of first-century context. I found myself already considering Jesus’ claims against the backdrop of Roman rule, Jewish hope and the reality of God’s kingdom breaking through in Jesus.
Good thoughts and a good start to our conversation...I have many of the same questions regarding culture and studying it as well. A few observations.
ReplyDeleteI am not so sure the problem with Americans is whether or not we know what Jesus said about life and how we should live. I think we know but have failed to doubt that the, story we continue to find ourselves in really isn't true. Here is an example...we know that money and things do not bring ultimate happiness but continue to live lives that support such view. It is important to me to have nice things, to want an iPad etc because I think I need them to make life easier and ultimately better. I know it isn't true but it doesn't stop me from living in that story. I type this from my iPad I got for Christmas.
Peter Rollins talks a lot about this. I can hear that I need to turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, love my enemies and believe in my mind that it is true...yet if it doesn't change my life and how I truly live then it hasn't really done anything for me. Christianity isn't about right belief, but about right living. Your teens has the right belief...of course he wouldn't betray Jesus...but how often does he do it by the things he says, does, or doesn't do everyday?
I love the "perfect storm" concept and see too many things that are similar to today. It is really scary! I love and believe it is a great time to be alive and serving in the church. However, it is also a challenging time as well. To get people to go agains everything that they have thought before is a challenge that seems overwhelming. But I often think of my own story...going to Trevecca a Rush Limbaugh loving conservative young man and coming out where I am today is two different places. Is loving Rush Limbaugh bad? But I have learned so much about God and who I believe him to e it has changed not only how I think but hopefully also how I live. My outlook on life has hanged dramatically...not from bad to good but just from different to different. Before I often tried to fit my ideas about bible and such into what I already believed rather than starting with the text and seeing what it might have said kiang ago and then bringing it into our day today.
There were so many good lines and thoughts in these chapters. I will stop for now...I feel like I am starting to ramble.
A good book I have read part of is "Our Father Abraham" by Marvin Wilson is a great book on Jewish culture and Greek culture. Also gets into other Jewish culture as well.
I will post more tomorrow as I try to continue to gather my thoughts. I am also looking forward to seeing how he flushes all this out and works it together.
Can't believe you have read a nt wright book all the way through. You are missing out!
Loving this...not sure why we are just now starting this!
After asking "is it bad loving rush Limbaugh?" I meant to write "No". But it got left off. Should have done a better job previewing it.
ReplyDeleteWow...so many other typos as well...I should not do this on an iPad and not late at night as well...hopefully you can decipher from what was written. I will try and do better next time.
ReplyDeleteNo worries regarding the typos. Your points were good and I didn't have any problem understanding what you meant to type. I know we are all busy and I don't want this blog to take more time than it should.
ReplyDeleteThe different mindset (the one we grew up with vs. the one we have now) is something probably all three of us can resonate with. As you said, it's not bad vs. good. Just different. I think the head knowledge vs. right living depends on whether or not we truly believe Jesus is who he says he is. We answer the question Jesus asked Peter (Who do you say that I am?) every day. We can say we believe, but if our life doesn't match that belief, do we really believe it? (which I think is your point--correct me if I am wrong).
Would you say right living stems from heart transformation? (Heart transformation which leads to behavior/attitude modification)
Further thought about Peter story...I have no doubt Peter really believed Jesus was who he says he was. Yet, he still missed it. He believed in a Jesus that matched what he thought Jesus should be and do. So maybe the question for us is not only do we believe Jesus, but do we believe in a Jesus we created or the Jesus we can actually know and see in Scripture?
ReplyDeleteJeremy and Mark,
ReplyDeleteSo glad that we are doing this together. This is definitely something that I need and I can think of no one better that I would want to be doing this with. Thanks for the 1st set of questions Mark, and the responses that you posted Jeremy. I am sure it will take us a little while to get this down pat, and to find what method is truly the right one to work through this book and hopefully more. Here are some of my thoughts.
I absolutely loved this section of the book. He says so much good stuff, it is hard to try and narrow in on certain points, but I like the way you have framed it out. The issues within this part are many issues that I continually deal with, and it is always good to hear a different perspective. I think Wright does a great job of capturing the tension that so many people have struggled with for so many generations when it comes to Jesus and how to view Him and His life lived out within the text.
For me, the perfect storm was a great analogy as well, bringing the three storms together that was raging in Jesus’ day. It really helps with clarity and I do believe that Wright will help many people understand this complex issue better. This will definitely be a step for many people in the right direction when it comes to living out a spirituality that always realizes who Jesus was and who He came to, then applying that to their life. I believe that the way we do this is through this idea of asking the right questions, which Wright nails on the head. I did not keep count, but within this section Wright asks many great questions. As we seek answers, this will keep us on our toes and keep us moving forward as we continue to grow and learn about Jesus.
The problem with this is that many people are scared of questions. I think many people see them as weakness and will not pursue them because of the pressure that has been placed on Christians from the outside world to know everything and live a perfect life. I also think that not asking questions is the safe thing to do. Why venture into the unsafe waters of questions, when I can stand here on what I believe and hopefully that will be enough? This is something that we as Christians have to get over if we are ever going to understand Jesus and live the life He has called us to live.
In trying to figure out how to combat this, I am not sure exactly what it looks like. I think it starts at the pulpit. We need pastors who are not afraid to ask the right and hard questions and then move forward with what we find. It is not only important to tell what we find, but teach our congregations how to do this as well. Wright hit on this in his book, which you referenced earlier Mark. I think beyond that, it does come to humility within our own lives and living out that kingdom like you said Mark within our every day life. Hopefully someone will see that and want to pursue that same life that we are living. This is important and we are called to do this as the people of God.
Jeremy, I am with you there bro on really understanding and living this thing out. At times it seems so easy to think I need this or that, and what not, but I struggle a lot with that. I don’t it is wrong to like Rush, but I think we should measure what he says anyway we would measure up anything else we hear, and that is against the word. The questions then becomes do we just go by what the Bible says, or do we really have to learn the context and apply it to the context of the Bible? I would say the latter would apply.
Just some thoughts. I know they are a little scattered, but I hope they make sense. I will work definitely harder on getting my bookmarks down so I can reference the book more within my writings. I look forward to your response.
Seth
Seth-
ReplyDeleteIn regards to fear of questions...Why can't we all just live our lives at the great poet's, Michael W. Smith, concert? Everybody together now..."Jesus is the answer for the world today" (everyone grabs the hands of the person next to them...wait for it...a slow progression of those joined hands raising to the sky. Can you imagine it with me?!?)
Jesus is the answer, but who is Jesus? Does the Jesus we sing about and talk about and believe in match the Jesus in Scripture? Does this Jesus make a difference in our lives today? In our world today?
Could it be honest, open, and the right questions potentially lead us to a better understand of Christ, thereby a better understanding of who we were created to be? Could it actually increase our faith? I think so. (Understanding our faith is not based on asking questions, but seeing what we are learning actually making a difference in our lives. Asking the right questions is only one aspect of the faith journey.) I think the alternative of burying our questions and/or not asking the questions leads to a static faith that does not make a difference in our lives.
I don't remember who...probably several people and maybe even wright in this book...but someone said that being a Christian is not about learning all the right answers but rather learning to ask the right questions. Maybe someone at Trevecca said it also. It is something to think about for sure.
ReplyDeleteI think...to build on my thoughts from the other night...that the switch from one thought pattern to another is so difficult that so often I need to be patient with people. I remember Huge moment s in my life and walking around school thinking life might be over (ok, not really that dramatic but it sure felt like it sometimes). (side note...are you guys watching Baylor/Washington game? CRAZY!). Our society is built on the thought that you need to know the answers...which is why I think Rush is so big. He gives and tells a lot of people what to think. How different would his program be if he allowed people to think differently and be ok with it? Probably wouldn't have as many listeners.
So, it is not easy and I think how we get people to go on that journey is so important. Preaching is a part of it, but honestly I am not sure that people remember a lot of what is said from pulpit. It has to be followed or implemented on many different levels. Preaching, I believe, is reminding the people of who they are because we live in a world that causes us to forget it seems like on Monday morning. Some make it longer, but few do.
I am really enjoying this book. It is great insight and fun to think through. I hope that you have been reading.
Also, Mark, I think it was Andre Crouch who wrote "Jesus is the Answer"....Michael just made it good (I guess)!
Not sure what all that means but I guess that is what we are doing...trying to figure it out. But I agree...asking the right Questions may lead to truly living out who Jesus has called us to be rather than trying to find all answers.
Guys,
ReplyDeleteI think we are all on the same page. Of course asking questions is not the end. If you are planting a garden, the hoe is not the end. It is merely a tool, one of many, that allows you to have fruits and vegetables after a time of growth. Theology is a tool that allows us to grow in knowledge so we may better be able to understand who Jesus is, or any aspect of scripture and thought (we are clearly talking about Jesus in with this book), and how He calls us to live. A true gardner would not just use a hoe over and over without giving it care and attention. it must be sharpened and cared for in order for it to reach its maximum potential and efficiency. Theology must be handled the same way. We must continually grow and expand our theology, sharpening it so to say, to reach our potential as followers of Christ (I will say that I totally understand and believe that theology is not the only tool). So then the question then becomes how do we sharpen this tool that we have been given? I believe this is really were questions come into play. I totally agree that it is so important to ask the right questions. I think as we ask questions, the right ones, and seek answers, our theology comes into an informed theology (what we are trying to do here and now and many people have done before us, such as Wright with this book). This is very important I believe. It is very easy to hold hands and sing "Jesus is the answer" for sure. This is where I was talking about pastors needing to teach their people how to ask questions, the right ones, and help them in finding answers (knowing and realizing that all questions may not have answers, and that is ok). This goes way beyond the pulpit I believe Jeremy. I am not saying this is the ultimate answer, or the best, but one way I believe that we could start to combat uninformed theology. This obviously still leads to a great question, of what if someone feels they have an informed theology that we may say is not, I am not sure? That is the hard part. That is where we have to encourage continued conversation and willingness to questions.
Seth
Good thoughts guys! I am enjoying the book and the dialogue. Looking forward to the next section.
ReplyDeleteJeremy - Baylor/Washington game was nuts. Fun to watch,but those defenses were pathetic. Michael W. Smith - a little piece of me died inside when I read that comment. I think I can live with Crouch writing that one. But please don't tell me if Smith did not write 'Friends'. Just let me live in my Michael W. Smith dream world.
FYI...I edited the labels for the post. I included two labels that coincide with our comments.
ReplyDeleteMark